tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1651908162607091292.post7304912188537927829..comments2024-01-05T01:21:21.702-08:00Comments on <center>SPECULUM CRITICUM TRADITIONIS</center>: On Mormon theologoumenaskholiasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05410057905377189336noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1651908162607091292.post-14057011811552909392011-06-01T02:52:14.518-07:002011-06-01T02:52:14.518-07:00I remember once reading a description of Joseph Sm...I remember once reading a description of Joseph Smith describing Eternity itself and it sounded very much just like the refined and unrefined matter concept of Mormon Cosmology. I read his statement as a kid when I was trying to find out just where did the organized matter itself spring from. He said it was like a ring, on the ring you cannot find the beginning or the end. <br /><br />The one thing that must be kept in mind when discussing what Mormons believe is that the theology was something of a work in progress before its founder was killed at quite a young age. There was supposed to be a clause for continued revelation on the matter. Article 11 of the declaration states in paraphrase 'and many things will yet be revealed pertaining to the Kingdom of God' These revelations were to be forthcoming from what Mormon's believed God to be (A Super-Human as this author has pointed out.) after the founders assassination this clause was never exercised theologically but rather in more bureaucratic matters such as revoking policies or making statements. Therefore in my opinion deeper questions about the nature of reality the truth what have you. Even the details of God, his nature, functions, Mind ect...remain unanswered and in all likelihood will always remain that way. On record.<br /><br />There is one actually doctrinal 'out' for the seeker, you are entitled to receive personal revelation on these questions directly through God through (again in Mormonism extremely enigmatically explained) his mediator the Holy Spirit. However whatever you find out you are asked to please keep politely to yourself. This 'out' in my experience has created some extremely Holy Men within their rather immense system as well as at extremes infamous men such as Brian David Mitchell whom I met one day in SLC dressed up as Jesus. And who after he was caught I had learned had gone so far as to author an extensive manifesto on the mysteries he had discovered. How one receives revelation on theology or (and this is really a living practice) even extremely mundane affairs like which computer to buy to the all important one of ones choice for their divine pairing is through the Holy Spirit but I presume from our end the connection is through the medium of the priesthood. Even women must receive their 'gift' of speaking to the Holy Spirit from a Man who holds the priesthood usually called God's Power by Mormons. And Skoliast your description of the implications of this concept of priesthood in the Mormons belief structure was the most fascinating aspect of the blog. Thank you for your thoughts.. anything definitive about it is up to each member to come to terms with if they choose to stress themselves out with thinking deeply on it at all. Mormonism will never have an accepted Aquinas that much I am 99% sure of.dorjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12822022520823998690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1651908162607091292.post-53355544779765875902011-05-30T20:09:21.206-07:002011-05-30T20:09:21.206-07:00Yes, I have often thought that the Orthodox teachi...Yes, I have often thought that the Orthodox teaching on deification is not unlike the LDS doctrine in some respects. There's a literalism about Mormonism, and the cosmological setting is not quite different, but there remains an analogy.skholiasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05410057905377189336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1651908162607091292.post-79868910584993513822011-05-30T12:00:38.992-07:002011-05-30T12:00:38.992-07:00I've recently been made aware of the eastern o...I've recently been made aware of the eastern orthodox doctrine of theosis, which sounds quite a bit like the Mormon position on becoming-gods that you reference. This teaching is already present in the Pauline letters, and even in Genesis 1. I'm not sure why Catholics and Protestants have stepped away from this doctrine: maybe it's too "prideful" a la Genesis 3.<br /><br />When I was in college a friend and I invited two Mormon missionaries to give us the multi-installment orientation. My friend was a practicing Catholic; I was a devout agnostic. It was clear that the missionaries were more intent on converting my already-Christian friend than on dealing with my issues.<br /><br />I'll be back later to track down some of the links you thoughtfully posted about LDSism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1651908162607091292.post-35951515649313650272011-05-28T07:42:10.794-07:002011-05-28T07:42:10.794-07:00It is that, practically speaking-- all the hallmar...It is that, practically speaking-- all the hallmarks of protestant work-ethic and guilt and (in the worst cases) a facile "happiness" are there. At least in its Utah valley varieties (the kind I know best), it combines this legalism (a valorization of "obedience" swathed in caveats about "mercy") with an unabashed American manifest-destiny doctrine. Outside Utah it tends to be far more mellow on this score. It's also a lot more mainline-protestant looking from the outside. <br /><br />None of this is to say that "really" Mormonism is a cult, or that beneath its white-bread facade is a bunch of magico-sci-fi craziness. (Remember that I myself practice a religion which affirms a bodily resurrection of the Messiah and, in some manner, the ritualized cannibalism of God, not to mention, what is even weirder, that "all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.") While I have little patience for the crueler or more anti-intellectual aspects of LDS practice, I know many Mormons who have exactly this same impatience. The sociology of the LDS really is not very different from that of most middle-American Christians. They have worked hard to assimilate since Utah gained statehood.<br /><br />On the other hand, the mythology (and that is not a swear-word for me) of humans molting into gods via moral <i>bildung</i> and initiatory ceremony is very much alive and well in Mormonism. I say this not as an exposé but just as a simple declaration. What is fascinating to me is the way in which diverse cosmologies can still support the basic liberal bourgeois story and values. All the ferment of early 19th-c. magic, freemasony and puritan/nonconformist theology which went into early Mormonism turns out to have a practical side very much like that of Bible-belt born-againism, which of course counts LDS theology as a tissue of deviltry. <br /><br />If you want to know what pop Mormonism believes (in the US), see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday%27s_Warrior" rel="nofollow"><i>Saturday's Warrior</i></a>. It won't give you the speculative stuff I've touched on here (which derives from an earlier era in LDS history) but it shows the basic outiline of the cosmology and its practical upshot as far as "this world" goes. A briefer, more schematic presentation of the basic cosmology is in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojX172jF9-I" rel="nofollow"><i>Man's Search for Happiness</i></a>, which used to be shown at LDS visitors' centers. Good sources for speculative LDS theology are <a href="http://dialoguejournal.com/" rel="nofollow"><i>Dialogue</i></a> and <a href="http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/" rel="nofollow"><i>Sunstone</i></a>. There are also a dozen or so good online discussions; I lurk <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mormon-mystic/" rel="nofollow">here</a> sometimes. Naturally none of these are "official" and <i>Sunstone</i> in particular has had a hard time of it from the LDS authorities. They seem to take it in stride.<br /><br />Of course I haven't even touched on the <i>Book of Mormon</i> and the Lamanites, because all that is a matter of purely historical happenstance and presumably Mormons, to the extent that they ever speculate about "other worlds", do not think of that narrative as having ontological or cosmological import, however salvific it may be for them.skholiasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05410057905377189336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1651908162607091292.post-44638991209388845112011-05-28T06:11:46.137-07:002011-05-28T06:11:46.137-07:00Fascinating -- I had no idea. I'd always dismi...Fascinating -- I had no idea. I'd always dismissed Mormonism as an Americanized legalistic variant of Judeo-Christianity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1651908162607091292.post-81516746660485797372011-05-24T19:18:01.799-07:002011-05-24T19:18:01.799-07:00Hi Skholiast. You might enjoy this: http://www.new...Hi Skholiast. You might enjoy this: http://www.new-god-argument.comLincoln Cannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09758620457581101045noreply@blogger.com